How to Negotiate Without Fear with Expert Strategist Victoria Medvec

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An open laptop with a red mug with the Travelers umbrella logo on it in white. The screen of the laptop reads: Wednesdays with Woodward (registered trademark) Webinar Series. Joan Kois Woodward's webcam feed appears in the upper right corner. Joan Kois Woodward and Dr. Victoria Medvec.

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Hello. Happy new year, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. I'm Joan Woodward, and it's my privilege to lead the Travelers Institute, which is the public policy division and educational arm of Travelers. Welcome to Wednesdays with Woodward, a webinar series where we convene leading experts for conversations about today's biggest challenges, both personal and professional. 

Since the pandemic hit, we have hosted 47 webinars with over 80 speakers, and have just announced our outstanding lineup for the first quarter of 2022, kicking off today with a world-renowned expert in negotiation. Before we get started, I'd like to share our disclaimer about today's program. 

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New slide. Text, About Travelers Institute Webinars. The Wednesdays with Woodward educational webinar series is presented by the Travelers Institute, the public policy division of Travelers. This program is offered for informational and educational purposes only. You should consult with your financial, legal, insurance or other advisors about any practices suggested by this program. Please note that this session is being recorded and may be used as Travelers deems appropriate.

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And also, a special thank you to our partners the American Property Casualty Insurance Association and the Connecticut Business and Industry Association.

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New slide, Text, How to Negotiate Without Fear with Expert Strategist Victoria Medvec. Logos along the bottom. American Property Casualty Insurance Association, Insuring America, apci.org; US Chamber of Commerce, Women Taking the Lead; Travelers Institute, Travelers; CBIA.

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So, before we get started, I did want to mention that we have a very special webinar coming up on January 26 in two weeks. We've got this for all of our valued agents and brokers out there in the insurance land, we're going to host the CEO of the Council for Insurance Agents and Brokers, everyone knows him as Ken Crerar, and our own Pete Heard, who leads our distribution management strategy. We're going to be discussing opportunities and topics in 2022 about how to grow your business and how to thrive. So, if you look in the chat right now, you'll see a link to register for that webinar with Ken Crerar.

Now, let's get started. I'm thrilled to kick off the new year with a special guest to help put your best foot forward in 2022. So, get out your pen and paper, this is going to be a mini masterclass in negotiation.

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New slide titled Speakers. Headshots of Joan Woodward and Dr. Victoria Medvec. Text, Joan Woodward, Executive Vice President, Public Policy; President, Travelers Institute; Travelers. Victoria Medvec, Founder and CEO, Medvec and Associates; Adeline Barry Davee Professor of Management and Organizations, Kellogg School of Management, Northwestern University.

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Please welcome Dr. Victoria Medvec to our virtual stage. Vicki is a leading global expert on negotiation strategy, corporate governance, and decision-making. In short, she's a real powerhouse, and I've really followed her work for many years.

She's CEO of Medvec and Associates, an advisory firm with a long list of clients, including Google, IBM, McDonald's, and a long list of others. She is Adeline Barry Davee professor of management and organizations at Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University.

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Book cover. Cover Text: Dr. Victoria H. Medvec, "Negotiate Without Fear: Strategies and Tools to Maximize Your Outcomes." Wiley. Image of an elephant and a mouse perfectly balanced on either ends of a teeter-totter.

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And she's written the handbook on negotiation called Negotiate Without Fear, Strategies and Tools to Maximize Your Outcomes, which many of you have already received a complimentary copy of, and hopefully had a chance to dive into it over the holidays.

So, if you've missed out and want to order your book, see the link in the chat to get your complimentary copy. Keep it handy as we're going to be referring to it throughout the show. So, Vicki, welcome.

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The slide show disappears and is replaced by a split screen of Joan and Dr. Victoria Medvec's webcam feeds.

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I'm so thrilled that you can join us today. I've had my copy of the book right here with lots of little notes and tags throughout it. So, I loved it, and I learned so much. Can you please just tell us, why did you write this book?

Well, first, I want to say thank you so much for having me, Joan. I am delighted to be on this program with you, and I feel really honored to be one of your guests for Wednesdays with Woodward. So, thank you for having me. And when you think about, why did I write the book. I wrote the book pretty much for two reasons. Number one, I had clients asking me, why don't you have a book? We need to have a book. You come in and speak to us, and we want a book to follow up.

So, clients have been asking for a book for a long time. And I knew that book should focus on something that my clients, who are often very experienced negotiators, people who might be negotiating large customer contracts or supplier agreements or big business development deals. I have lots of clients who negotiate all the time. But I saw that they had fear when they negotiated.

And then clearly, I heard from conversations with thousands of people, my students, and others, that they were afraid when they were negotiating. And I wanted to write a book to help people to negotiate without fear, to take the fear out of negotiation. Because I really believe that fear impedes both amateurs and experts when they negotiate. And I wanted to get rid of that fear in their negotiation. So, I wrote the book for that reason.

Why did I write the book right now? Well, what the pandemic provided was hours of time when I wasn't on an airplane.

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Joan smiles.

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And so I've been writing the book for many years and doing lots of consulting and speaking in companies around the globe, but what the pandemic offered was the time without airplane travel, which gave me a lot more time for writing. And so that's why right now. But why was it needed? It was needed because people are afraid.

Wow, it's a silver lining, right, for all of us and for you in the pandemic. So, thank you. Thank you for that.

Absolutely.

So, what are the biggest messages? What are the key takeaways you want people to remember from this book?

So, if I were to think about the number one takeaway it would be to be confident when you're negotiating. That if you use the right strategies, you can confidently approach the negotiation and know with certainty that you can maximize your outcome and build the relationship with the other side. And knowing that, I believe takes away a lot of the fear because we're afraid of conflict, we're afraid to damage the relationship, we're afraid of the other side walking away, with a lot of fear around that. So, I want you to know you can be confident, negotiate well, and simultaneously build the relationship and maximize your outcome.

And building that relationship, that's important in every scenario, every situation?

So clearly, Joan, there are some one-shot deals. And I have to tell you, as a professional negotiator, I love one-shot deals like buying a house or buying a car. The last time we bought a car in my family, we bought my midlife crisis car. And I will tell you that I used a lot of strategy to get a good deal in that situation, knowing that it was a one-shot situation.

So one-shot deals do exist. But I think for the most part, professionally, when we're negotiating, we're trying to negotiate in ways that let us build the relationship and maximize our outcomes. Because most of our ongoing business negotiations are really iterative interactions where we care about that relationship with the other side. It's not a one-time negotiation.

And so, the book can certainly help you with strategies for buying a car or buying a house. But the book can particularly help you with strategies for negotiating with customers, negotiating with suppliers, negotiating with your clients, negotiating all the time, every single day where the relationship does matter.

Great. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm a big car person, so I like to hear that it's OK, you don't have to really build that relationship with your car dealer.

OK.

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Dr. Medvec holds up her book.

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So, you take a look in the book, and make sure you check out the section on buying a car, because there's some tips on that will help you.

OK, good, good practical advice. Thank you, Vicki. All right. We're going to turn the tables on the audience just for a minute, and we're going to ask you, the audience, to answer our polling questions. And this is going to help Vicki kind of think about who is on the line with us.

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Joan puts on glasses.

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So, the first polling question is, what is your biggest fear in a negotiation? So, let's pull that up. OK, what is your biggest fear in a negotiation, conflict, leaving money on the table, damaging my relationship with the other side except the cars for your car, losing. You don't want to lose. No one wants to lose. All of the above, I'm not afraid, I love to negotiate. So, which one?

I can't wait to see their responses, Joan.

I know. It's really quite fun, isn't it, to see how many--and we have very professional insurance negotiators, believe me. I've been on the different side of that table, and they're very good at it. So, let's see what their biggest fear is in negotiating. So, did we get those results? There we go. Thank you so much. So, conflict came up as 22%. Leaving money on the table, that's only 16%. That's quite interesting. Damaging my relationship with the other side, 19%. Losing, 11%. All of the above, of course, 27. And we have 6% of our audience who's got it down. They know what they're doing, they're not afraid. That's awesome.

And that's awesome. But I want to highlight that 94% have fear. And that includes a lot of very experienced negotiators. As you said, Joan, many of the people who are listening in have been negotiating for decades. And that's why I always stress that fear doesn't just impede novice negotiators. It impedes expert negotiators. What they're afraid of might vary, but fear tends to have a focus for many of us in the negotiation. And I think your polling results show that.

And I like the fact that money wasn't the number one. And my relationship was more important than money. I mean, I think that's really telling and also just reflective of our wonderful audience on the phone. OK.

One thing I would say on that though, Joan, is damaging the relationship is a huge problem because our relationships with the other side do matter. But if we end up with suboptimal deals, where I could have done more for you at no cost at all to myself, I actually took--I lost the opportunity to actually perhaps enhance the relationship. So a piece of what I want to talk about is, how do I ensure I don't leave money on the table, not because of it being money, but because that means that I may have ended with a deal that could have been better for you at no cost at all to me. And I want to show you some ideas on that as we go through today's discussion.

Excellent. Excellent. OK, next question for our audience. Next and last question for our audience. Let's see where they come out here. Takes a second. In your most recent negotiation, how'd it go? So, I negotiated aggressively, I have some regrets, I should've negotiated more than I did. I didn't even think about negotiating until it was too late. What's negotiating? OK. So, everyone, choose your most favorite answer here and we'll see what we come up with. See what our audience is thinking.

It's exciting to see so many responses. I love seeing so many of your participants responding.

I have some regrets, number one. I should have negotiated more. Well, you're in the right spot for the next 45 minutes, we're going to help you. The second one is, I negotiated aggressively. OK. I didn't even think about negotiating until it was too late, or what is negotiating, 5%. So, Vicki, what do you make of these? Is this so reflective of--

So, I would say that it doesn't surprise me that many people end a negotiation have this sense of, I think I could have done better, I think I could have done more. And I would actually argue that having that feeling of perhaps I could have done more, it's probably a healthy thing, because it's causing you to really make sure that you're setting ambitious goals when you go in there, and that you're never achieving that goal. Because if you are always achieving your goal in a negotiation, it probably means you're not being ambitious enough.

So, I like the fact that people have this feeling that maybe I could have done better, because that means they were thinking ambitiously about what they wanted to get, what they were trying to get. And we're going to talk about the idea that goals drive outcomes. So, people who are setting those more ambitious goals are getting better outcomes in their negotiations. So that's a healthy thing to be doing in negotiation.

Great. Great. So, you do say in the book that some of the best negotiators, maybe in their professional lives, are afraid to negotiate on behalf of themselves, for themselves, to advocate for themselves. Why do you say that?

So that is an effect that is definitely shown with a gender component to it. So, one of the things that is often discussed is that women are less likely to negotiate for themselves than men are. And one of the things I would say is, it's very important to recognize two points. Number one, that does not mean that women cannot negotiate. In fact, when it comes to negotiating on behalf of their organization, on behalf of a company that they support, on behalf of their business, on behalf of their families or others, women are often incredibly aggressive negotiators and will often even outperform men in those negotiations.

So, there's no gender difference in business negotiations. The difference arises when it comes to negotiating for yourself. And women are far less likely to ask for themselves than men are. But I think it's an important point, because I know your audience is made up of both men and women is, women are far less likely to ask than men are. But men are also not that likely to ask for themselves. So, negotiating for yourself is an area of negotiation that causes consternation for both men and women.

And the strategies that are in the book help you in those negotiations for yourself. And in fact, Joan, if you look at all of the content chapters in the book, you'll see that there's a special section in every one of them, at least one and sometimes even more than one special section that calls out tips for negotiating for yourself. So it takes strategies that you can apply to any negotiation, and it particularly focuses on how would I use these in negotiating for myself, because I think that's an area where people have some of the biggest fears.

Wonderful. I'm sure we're all going to go read that chapter and those vignettes to help us. So how does it work, Vicki? Tell us. So, when you get a call from someone wanting your services, so have they generally started a negotiation process already and they've screwed it up, they have messed it up? Or do they pull you in before they even start planning a huge negotiation maybe for a big M&A deal or something like that?

So, a lot of times, the first time people call me, they're calling me because they are in crisis mode. They have a negotiation, it's at an impasse, they're getting pressure. And so, they call me up and ask for assistance. But a lot of times, once they've used me, then they will call me proactively to help them as they get started.

And clearly, when we can help you to create a strategy before you start, you're going to be in better shape. But I would always say, it's never too late to start to negotiate well, and that even if you're in a situation where you feel like you're in an impasse and it's really, really difficult, using the right strategy can help you to overcome that challenge.

So when you look at the book, it gives you strategies that can help you whether you are doing what I would argue is the best case of starting early with great preparation and using the right strategies throughout the entire negotiation. Or whether you're at the end with an impasse, and you need strategies to help you to recover.

Great. OK. So, I want to dig into the book and really get to the nitty-gritty. One of your major themes is BATNA, the best alternative to negotiated agreement, yours, and theirs. So why is it important to know both?

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Dr. Medvec nodding.

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And how do you figure out what the other side's BATNA is? So, spend a minute talking about BATNA and why do you believe it's so important that people understand that term.

Absolutely. So, first of all, Joan, I want to say I am really appreciative of you and Travelers offering the book free of charge to everyone who's listening. I think that's a wonderful gift, and I hope everyone will take advantage of it to have a copy of the book. If you look in the book, there is an entire chapter dedicated to building your own best alternative to negotiated agreement. That's your BATNA. Your BATNA is your plan B, your best outside option. And there's a full chapter dedicated to building up your alternative.

That's because your BATNA is your biggest source of power in any negotiation. There are many sources of power. Information is a source of power. Timing is a source of power. The negotiator gets in a hurry, loses power. Ratification or having to check with someone is a source of power. But the biggest source of power in every negotiation is your best outside alternative.

So, there's a whole chapter on building that source of power. And in that chapter, we talked a lot about making sure that you are simultaneously building your options, not sequentially building your options. You want to build your options up front before you negotiate. So for example, Joan, if you were thinking about leasing an apartment and you have a current lease, the first thing you would not want to do is to go to your landlord and talk about renewing your lease.

The first thing you would want to do is go find some other apartments. And people often will say to me, no, no, no, I wanted to talk to my landlord, and then if I couldn't get a good deal, I would go find another option. And I always say to them, how do you know if you had a good deal if you didn't know what the other options were? So, you want to build your options, generate alternatives. And that's true in professional negotiations and personal negotiations. It's always true that you want to have alternatives.

Your BATNA, your own BATNA is not only your biggest source of power, it also is the biggest determinant of your bottom line. At what point would you walk away? That's referred to as your reservation point. So, there's one full chapter on building your own best alternative to negotiated agreement. But there's another chapter that I personally think is the one that's very unique in my book, which is I spend a lot of time talking about analyzing the weaknesses of the other side's BATNA.

I actually believe that your goal in the negotiation should be based on your assessment of the weaknesses of the other side's best alternative to negotiated agreement, the weaknesses of their options. And I don't only believe that you should think about it, I actually believe you should carefully analyze the weaknesses of the other side's alternatives and use that to establish your goal for the negotiation.

So, if you look in that chapter, you'll see that I actually created and shared a number of BATNA analysis tools. I use these with clients and customize them for every one of my clients, but I shared with your group and in the book a number of general BATNA analysis tools. One for a customer negotiation or a client negotiation. One for a supplier agreement. One in an employment situation to help you to really think through in a very clear way answering 10 quick questions to really dig in and analyze their BATNA. Because to me, analyzing their BATNA allows you to establish an ambitious goal.

And I think if you look at the book, one of the things you will see is, a lot of times we approach negotiation in an egocentric way. We're really, really focused on ourselves. So, like, I go into the negotiation, I'm really, really focused on what I have to get. But I don't think enough about the weaknesses of the other side to set the right goal, and that hinders me.

And in fact, if you go through the chapters, many of the tracks that encounter negotiators as they go through a negotiation occur because of this egocentrism. So, I want to try to reduce that egocentrism. And the BATNA analysis tool is really designed to get you to really focus on the weaknesses of the other side.

1. So why do people want to let the other side go first in a negotiation? Why are people worried about going first? And you advocate in the book that going first is an advantage.

Yes, going first is absolutely an advantage. People who make first offers get better outcomes than people who follow. And I know there's lots and lots of people who will say, he who speaks first loses. But the fact is, that is based on no research. It's a popular statement, but it's based on no research. The research on this is abundantly clear that people who make the first offer get better outcomes than people who follow.

And the reasons for that are four different things. Number one, when I lead a discussion with the client, I can create an anchoring point. And anchoring is a very powerful psychological phenomena. People get anchored on numbers, and they insufficiently adjust off of them. So, when I lead, I get this starting point advantage, this anchoring advantage.

But the second advantage that happens when I lead is, I actually can set the table with the right issues. So, I can make sure that we're not just having a discussion on our price, I can instead be talking about all of the right issues that I want to be discussing. So, I can set the table with the right issues. And the third advantage is, I can frame the discussion. I can literally create the rationale for the conversation.

And the fourth and final advantage is, when I lead, I'm in the relationship-enhancing position. When I follow, I have to come in there and tell you what I don't like about your offer, why your offer isn't reasonable, why it isn't enough. I have to critique and criticize your offer. I don't want to start by critiquing and criticizing the other side. I want to start by creating an offer, getting that starting point advantage, building a rationale.

I can create a rationale that focuses on how my differentiators address your pressing business needs with all the right issues on the table to showcase that. And I get a lot of advantage from leading. So, it's very important to lead, but I will tell you, if you're an experienced negotiator and you've always let the other side go first, it's going to be hard to convince you to lead. It is the thing I spend the most time struggling with when I am coaching experienced negotiators.

Because experienced negotiators who have always let the other side go first believe that strategy works for them. And I have to convince them to try it another way. Because it's very likely that they do a lot of other things really well, and that they would get even better results if they got that anchoring advantage and set the table and frame the discussion and took that relationship-enhancing role. So, it's something I work with my clients on all the time.

I mean, I think the relationship enhancing, going first, not critiquing the offer, which was just given to you first is really, really interesting advice. So, we talk about going first. Let's talk about being aggressive. So, a lot of people have a problem with this too. How aggressive should your first offer be? Or how do you know if your offer is too aggressive?

Right. Great question. So, I always say you want to be aggressive not outrageous. So, you want to be aggressive, but you have to have a rationale to address your offer. Because an offer that doesn't have any rationale is just an outrageous offer. And I'm not saying I would never be outrageous. I might be outrageous when I'm buying a car, but I wouldn't be outrageous when I care about the relationship with the other side.

So, when I care about the relationship, I want to be ambitious, but I don't want to be outrageous. So, I need to build a rationale. But I think this is another place where it matters, what is that rationale? And the rationale should focus on, how do my differentiators address the other side's pressing business needs? And how do I know if I'm being ambitious enough? That comes from that BATNA analysis tool, from assessing the weaknesses of the other side's alternatives.

If their alternatives are very weak, you would want to be more ambitious than if they have a very strong outside alternative. And this goes to another point that we make in the book that I really stress, which is, you always want to be focused on how your differentiators address their needs. And the more I differentiate myself, the more I differentiate Travelers, the more I differentiate our offering, the more I differentiate our product, the more I differentiate, the weaker the other side's alternatives will be, and the more ambitious my goal can be. So, when you look at the book, think about that connection between differentiation, weakening the other side's alternatives, and letting me have that more ambitious goal.

Really, really interesting. So, I have to let my audience know, we've had almost 4,000 people register for your event today, Vicki, and the questions are just flowing in. So, if you have a question for Vicki, we're going to get to a lot of them, put it in the Q&A feature. So, the Q&A is at the bottom--you guys know this by now. Q&A feature, ask your question of Vicki.

And the one question no one has to ask because we're going to get to it is to how to negotiate your salary, your compensation, your bonus. It's that time of year, folks. So, we're going to get to that. So, you don't have to put that question in. Any other questions, Q&A feature. OK. So, let's talk, you talk about delivering your offer in person. And of course, during a pandemic, we're all sitting at home in Zoom in different places around the country and around the world today talking with you, Vicki.

But what differentiates those offers that are delivered kind of eye-to-eye or at least on screen for visual. What body language? I notice obviously, you use a lot of body language. Is that helpful to get your arms up and get your blood flowing? Or should you be more calm?

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Dr. Medvec nodding and smiling.

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Is there a gender effect in delivering your offer in person, or obviously, over on Zoom now? Tell us your thoughts.

So, before the pandemic, I used to talk all the time about say it, don't send it. And I would always tell my clients, you want to negotiate in a synchronous channel. You want to seek synchronicity. I want to be able to make an offer and immediately hear your reaction, immediately get your response, immediately see how I might need to concede or rationalize or create some kind of counteroffer.

So, I would always say, seek synchronicity. Say it, don't send it. And I used to push that all the time, Joan. And that the beginning of the pandemic, I was helping a client in the midst of a negotiation. I was like, you've got to get in front of them! Get to their offices! And they were saying, well, we're not allowed to fly on commercial flights. I said, then get a private plane, you've got to get there! You've got to be in person! And I really would always push people to be in person in front of the other side.

But the pandemic has clearly limited our ability to do that. And over time, one of the things I found is that if you cannot be in front of the other side face-to-face, then what you need to be is face-to-face on a camera with them, whether your favorite channel is Zoom or whether your favorite platform is Webex or Google Meet or whatever it is, Microsoft Teams, you've got to be in front of the other side with your camera on and getting them to have their camera on. So, I modified my statement to, say it, don't send it, and see them when you can say it.

When I can see the other side, I get many advantages. And one of the advantages is something which is, when I can look the other side in the eye, I become more creative. And clearly, creativity helps us in negotiation to come up with more alternatives, to be more creative in what our ideas are. How would we do it, how can we make this work? So, I need that creativity.

But a second thing that happens when I say it, don't send it, and see them when I say it is, I can see their reaction. I can watch. Do I need to concede? How much do I need to concede? How alarmed do they look? Do they look like that will work for them? I get all kinds of cues.

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Dr. Medvec puts her hands over face.

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If I turn my video off or they have their video off, I lose all those cues. I can't see them at all. I lose all the cues. So, you want to recognize that it is very, very important to think, say it, don't send it. See them when you say it.

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Dr. Medvec holds up her phone.

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So, I have been saying recently this is no longer a negotiation device. This, my telephone, is a great way to get the meeting, but it's not a great way to have the meeting. If I can't be in front of them for the meeting, I want to be on video with them and have the ability to see them while we're negotiating. Does that make sense, Joan?

It does. It does. But I just go back to when I was a junior person, and we have lots of junior people at the company and on the line today, what if your boss says to you, I'll call you with your bonus, or I'll call you-- let's set up a call? And you see it's not a Zoom, it's just a regular dial-in number or something. Is it OK as a junior person to say, hey, would you mind doing the Zoom with me, or is that a little too forward, too aggressive?

So, I don't think it's too forward or too aggressive at all. I think it says, you know, I know we can't get together right now because of the pandemic and travel restrictions, but could we get together on Zoom? I would love to see you and make sure that we have a connection. I think asking for that meeting--and a lot of times, what I've been teaching clients to say is, when you are negotiating with for example, one of your clients, and they don't want to do Zoom, I think it's very appropriate to say, I would love to get together with you. Would you rather we both travel to meet each other face-to-face or would you want to be face-to-face on video?

So instead of offering like "or not" I think just offer face-to-face in person or face-to-face on video, I want to make sure I can see you. I really miss you. I want to make sure we can connect. And I think focusing on the connection and the seeing each other is a great way to get a client, a supplier, or your boss onto the video, on platform. And I think it's really, really important when you get on it, that you have your video on the entire time. So, I always say put your video on first, leave it on the entire time, because that provokes the other side to have it.

I was on with a call the other day, and I think you'll love this story. So, I was on and it's a client who I've taught before, and it's a very, very large company. And I was on with someone who leads 40,000 people on their team, right? So, this is a very senior executive at this company. And I got on, and I was like, Paul, Paul, I can't see you. Paul, do you have your video on? I can't see you right now. And the person who was on the call with us is the client who I had worked with he said, Vicki always says that my team should do that to get the other on video. And look, she just did it. It's exactly what she recommends.

And I do recommend because, does it matter? It matters a great deal. It is a completely different experience when I can see them when I'm negotiating. I will tend to get more, I will tend to build the relationship in a stronger way, and I will tend to not make concessions that I don't need to make if I have the channel of information that is flowing to me. So, I think it's a big difference.

1. Fantastic. We're going to shift gears just a little bit and move away from our professional lives and talk a little bit about our personal lives. So, when you're negotiating with a client or an M&A deal or something in the boardroom, you can have kind of those attributes. When you're talking about your family, Vicki, because we did promise people we're going to talk about how to negotiate your kid's bedtime, your allowances.

I love what you talk about in the book in terms of how you negotiated with your nanny.

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Dr. Medvec smiles.

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So, one of the things you say is the importance of addressing the other person's needs and differentiating yourself. So, understanding what the other person needs first in a family situation. Or talk about your nanny situation. I just thought it was brilliant.

I love it that you like that example, Joan, and that is detailed in the book. One of the things I would say is, you always want to address the other side's pressing business needs. That is an objective I have in every single negotiation. And it speaks to what I was saying, which is, reduce your egocentrism. Focus on them not yourself. And then I always want to think about, how do I differentiate myself in my ability to address their needs? So, I was negotiating with the nanny. And this is a situation, which I think a lot of people would see and say, oh, I'm going to negotiate how much I'm going to pay the nanny.

But I believe that is not my only objective is to pay the nanny. My objective is to differentiate myself, address my nanny's needs, make sure I have a nanny for a long time. So, I wanted to make sure that I didn't have a nanny that would leave after a year. I wanted to keep a nanny for a long time, because I don't know about you, Joan, but I learned early on that switching costs were really high when it came to my nanny situation. And that when people would leave, it was a chaos in my household.

So, I wanted, you know, I wanted long-term care for my children. I clearly wanted super high-quality care. She was going to be with my two boys. And if I went in and only negotiated how much I would pay her; all I would achieve is negotiating her payment but not all of the other things. So, if you look at the book, I put a number of different issues on the table.

So, I thought about my nanny's pressing business needs. One of the things she really seemed to want was to have an ability to have vacation time that would be a lot of vacation time. She wanted vacation time. Well, that's one issue. Another thing she seemed to need is health insurance. She seemed very excited about getting health insurance from me. And so, I could put on health insurance, I could put on dental insurance.

I actually also negotiated something that I thought would differentiate me, which is I thought I could provide her with advice that would help her for her future career. And I thought that I could actually even pay for her to get a master's degree in education. I wanted a nanny who wanted to be with children, and I was hiring a nanny at a time when there was a lot of unemployment, and getting a job was really tough. It's hard to imagine that right now in today's labor shortage. But it was a time when getting a job was really tough.

And so, I found that when I was interviewing people, everybody loved children. But what that might have been code for is, there are no sales jobs right now and I'm just waiting, right? So, I wanted to make sure that I had somebody who was committed to kids, wanted to be around for a long time. And so, I actually put on the table an issue of paying for my nanny's education and helping her to get a master's degree in education. So, I had lots and lots of issues on the table. And of course, I did have the salary on the table, but it was by no means the only issue I was negotiating.

This is a part of what I talk about in chapter 2 in the book, Joan, which is putting the right issues on the table, thinking about your objectives and allowing your objectives to drive the negotiable issues that you add to the table. And so that was a very key part of that story, and it helped me to actually identify some things that were different in what I thought was important to her versus what was really important to her. And we were able to negotiate an agreement where I got long-term, high-quality care, and she got things that were important to her.

Fabulous example. Really, really fabulous.

Thank you.

Just great. So, we're going to go to, I think you brought a slide with you about the matrix. So how do you maximize your success in a negotiation without minimizing the other side's success? So, this is really tricky. This is delicate stuff. So, do you want to talk about this with our attendees here?

(DESCRIPTION)
New Slide titled Issue Matrix. Four squares, two on top, two on bottom, separated by two crossed arrows. The top of the vertical arrow is labeled Important to the Other Side. The bottom of the vertical arrow is labeled Easy for the Other Side to Give. The left side of the horizontal arrow is labeled Easy for You to Give, and the right side is labeled, Important to You. The upper left box reads, Important to the other side, Easy for you to give. Storytelling Issues. The upper right box reads, Important to the other side, Important to you. Contentious Issues. The lower left box reads, Not important to the other side, Not important to you. And the lower right box reads, Easy for the other side to give, Important to you. Trade-off Issues.

(SPEECH)
So, if you look at chapter 2 in the book, it talks a lot about putting the right issues on the table. This is a big focal point for me in the book. And a part of why I think it's so important is, I know that many of your listeners are expert negotiators. But one of the traps that snares experts is a lot of times they negotiate the wrong deal. They negotiate what's standard, what's typical, what always gets discussed, and they don't necessarily put the right issues on the table.

So, I always say you should begin by thinking about your objectives. Like I wanted long term, I wanted high-quality care, I wanted to make sure my nanny felt like, why would she work for me? How was I differentiating myself as an employer? I have a list of objectives; my objectives are going to drive my issues. And for every single objective I have, I'm going to have at least one, if not more than one, negotiable issue.

And then I laid them out on an issue matrix. And I think this matrix is a key component of getting ready for the discussion. Notice that the x-axis, that horizontal axis, Joan, is about what's important to me. And it goes from easy for me to give to very, very important to me. And that y-axis, the vertical axis, really focuses on what's important to the other side; from easy for the other side to give; to important to the other side.

So, think about it creates four quadrants. Three of them have names, and the three with names are the three that matter. So, you have this quadrant that's high on x and high and y, that's a contentious issue. It's super, super important to me, and super, super important to the other side. If you think about my nanny example, that's where salary might go. You will always have contentious issues on the table. The key is you never want to only have contentious issues on the table.

The most important quadrant is that storytelling quadrant. These are things that are really, really important to the other side and easy for me to offer up. That was something like, giving my nanny vacation time. I would pick the days but she had options on how much vacation time she wanted. Because I could give my nanny a lot of vacation time is very cost-free for me to give her time off when I would already be doing other things with my kids.

So, she could have had two weeks off at the holidays when my family would be there every year. She could have two weeks off at spring break when I would travel with my husband and my kids. And every year, I would actually take my kids and go to Europe for one month in the summer with my mom and my kids and I would see European clients. And that was an entire month. So, she could have potentially eight weeks off if I picked every day.

So, we fractionated that into two different issues, the number of days and who gets to pick the days. And who gets to pick the days was a trade-off issue. That is super important to me and maybe not as important to her. But the number of days off was absolutely a storytelling issue. And so, I want you to think about having more and more storytelling issues.

Another differentiator was the ability to pay for her to get a master's degree. That was a storytelling issue. Another one was career advice. That was a storytelling issue. So, I had lots and lots of storytelling issues on the table. Remember that almost all your differentiators will generally fit in the storytelling quadrant. And you want lots of storytelling issues, because that lets you get more on the contentious issues, and it lets you claim more on the trade-off issues, things that are really important to you that are easy for the other side to offer up.

So one of the big mistakes people make in negotiation, Joan, because they're so egocentric, is a lot of times people go to the table and they only have contentious and trade-of issues on the table, because they've only thought about what they want to get. And if you don't have storytelling issues, two problems happen.

Number one, you can't make the story focus on them. So, remember, I always want to focus on how my differentiators solve your pressing business problems. So, I want to focus on that. And the second thing is, if you don't have storytelling issues on the table, you literally have no fodder to get more on contentious and trade-off issues. So, it really disadvantages you to be egocentric and only think about yourself because you don't put the right things on the table.

(DESCRIPTION)
Joan puts on her glasses.

(SPEECH)
So, we're going to take some audience questions here for a little while because we have so many coming in.

Great,

(DESCRIPTION)
Dr. Medvec smiles.

(SPEECH)
I'm happy to.

We got a number of these. But one in particular from Matthew Prell. If you feel as though the negotiation went very poorly and things don't play out the way you anticipate or want, how do you kind of reset the clock?

(DESCRIPTION)
Joan makes air quotes around "reset the clock."

(SPEECH)
So, I think that this goes back to the idea of the relationship. So, I sometimes at the end of a negotiation might feel like I wish I had done that, I don't like that outcome. And I think sometimes people are tempted to go in and try to re-trade and change things that they have agreed to already. I would argue that's likely to damage the relationship.

So I always suggest that if you don't like the outcome, you begin to become a very careful monitor of the situation, and look for an opportunity when the other side wants something different once something new to go back in and then reopen the entire negotiation. This is why I always keep the issue matrix tracking, not just during a negotiation, but afterward. So that when the other side wants something and they are asking you for something more, you have the ability to go in and think about those storytelling issues that you would use to capture more on the trade-off issues that you might want.

So, for example, Joan, in my business, one of the trade-off issues I have is the ability to use a client's name. And you mentioned a few of my clients. Google, McDonald's, IBM, Cisco, McKesson, they all have something in common, which is, in each of those cases, initially, I was not allowed to use the client's name. But that was in my trade-off quadrant and I knew I wanted it. And so, I kept using storytelling issues to trade up and get the ability to use their name.

If you think about that issue matrix and keep monitoring that issue matrix, it allows you to never have a single issue conversation, but instead to always be talking about a package of issues, and using storytelling issues to capture more on contentious and trade-off issues. And also using trade-off issues when you have to give up something on contentious issues. So, think about the relationship. And the book really describes that in chapter 2.

So maybe in the first year, you were not allowed to use their names, these big companies. Then they realized the value to them by having you as kind of the spokesman for being an advisor was actually beneficial to them. Is that the way you thought about it?

Well, so I actually--it was in the actual context of the negotiation itself. So, in their first offer, they might have said, you can't use our name. Or they might have said, you would be allowed to but then they sent me a contract that said I couldn't. And before I would close it, I would make sure that I was using those storytelling issues to get that issue.

But I think so often in conversations, we go in and they say, no, you can't say that we're your client. And then you just drop the issue. And that's what I mean by leaving money on the table. You drop an issue too quickly. As soon as the other side pushes back, you drop it instead of thinking about the connection between all of the issues and making sure that you keep coming back to some of those key trade-off issues that are critical to you.

Great. OK. Another question from my good friend in Boston, David O'Neil, Story Trust. He asked, how do you deal with the other party when they get emotional or upset? Because that's a hard thing. Maybe they start crying.

That's a very good question. And one of the things you have to think about is, emotions are contagious. So, there's something called emotional contagion. And that means that whatever emotion I reveal, I am likely to see back from the other side. So, one of the hardest things is, the other side is upset, they're screaming at you. And one of the things you want to remember is to be calm. Because when I'm calm, it's going to provoke calmness on the other side.

I can't just show back that emotion, or we end up really just being very irritated and angry and yelling at each other, which is not productive. So, I want to remember, my emotions are contagious. I want to reveal the emotion I want to see. So, if I want them to be calm, I want to be calm. If they start to scream, I don't want to scream back. If they start to threaten, I don't want to threaten back.

So, I want to think about this idea of emotional contagion. And I think it's a really hard thing to do, because I think that if we're not thoughtful about it our immediate reaction is, they start to yell, and we start to yell back. So, it's a thing you have to work on to show the emotion you want to see in the other side.

1. All right. The big topic, we've had tons of questions on this come in before and during and I'm sure still after.

(DESCRIPTION)
Dr. Medvec smiles and nods.

(SPEECH)
So how do we successfully negotiate those raises, promotions? And how do you kind of deal with a boss or a company HR department that's really not willing to acknowledge your value? Because you obviously have to show value when you walk in, you're going to have your whole long list of accomplishments of what you did this year. And they're going to have their whole long list of things you may have done wrong, right or are not exactly perfectly. And how do you really advocate for yourself. So, it's a long-term success for yourself, and you feel good walking out of that room, and you don't damage that relationship.

It's a great question. And I think what it involves is taking the strategies we've been talking about today and thinking about how to package that together in an employment situation. So, the first thing I would say is, there is no such thing as a salary negotiation. You should never be negotiating salary all by itself. It is an employment engagement discussion. I want to talk about my employment with you. And I want to put the right issues on the table.

So, I should begin by making a list of my objectives. One of my objectives is to address your pressing business needs. Another objective is to build the relationship and make sure I maintain that relationship with my employer or boss. A third objective is to differentiate myself. And I want to show how my differentiators address your pressing business needs. And a fourth objective might be to maximize my outcome, whether that is to get a promotion, to get a raise, to get an extra bonus. I think another objective is to showcase my confidence that my differentiators will address your need.

So, if I think about that set of objectives, it's going to lead me to put the right issues on the table. And I want to then lay those issues out on my issue matrix, and make sure that I have more issues in the storytelling quadrant that I do in the contentious or trade-off quadrant. You should always have more storytelling issues than anything else.

And then you want to use that to build your offer. And as you're building your rationale, I always like to use this analogy, Joan, that when you're building a rationale, you should always think about it as a train going down the tracks. And the first car is never, never--the engine is never the salary. The engine is never about the bonus. The engine is never about the promotion. What the engine is, is the other side's most pressing business needs. That's what you're going to lead with, their pressing business needs.

And the next car back is how your differentiators address their needs. And the next car back is probably a bet that you would make in one--and you'll hear me talk about three offers--in one of three offers. You would probably put a bet on how your differentiators would address their needs. This would be some kind of performance-based bonus that is unlikely to ever be what you end with. It's not your standard bonus, it's not what they always do, but it's like how one of your differentiators will address their need and your willingness to bet on the fact that you will do that.

And the next car back are the rest of your differentiators that will address their needs. And your salary is there, it's attached, but it's in the caboose. In the caboose is your salary, in the caboose is your standard bonus. They're all there, they're all attached, but they're never the engine. They're always the caboose. And you always have to make the story about the engine, not the caboose. Keep the train moving forward.

When you start to make the rationale focus on the caboose, the train falls off the tracks, and everything is going to go awry. You want to keep that train moving forward. Keep the story focused on them and how you are uniquely differentiated to address their needs. I do recommend when you go in to have these conversations that you have them in a synchronous channel. So, my optimal way would be across the desk from your boss.

But if you can't be across the desk from them, you definitely want to be on video with them where, I am say it, don't send it, and see them when I say it. I want to remind all of your listeners; you should never be negotiating over email. You don't want to send your boss a request on email for what you want. You want to say it, don't send it, and see them when you say it.

And when you go in, I would encourage people to use the strategy that I talk about a lot in the book. In fact, the entire chapter 7 is dedicated to a strategy called multiple equivalent simultaneous offers. I know you have a picture of it that you could throw up on a slide that shows a multiple equivalent simultaneous offer template.

(DESCRIPTION)
New slide titled Multiple Equivalent Simultaneous Offer (MESO) Architecture. Chart with three columns along the top and 11 rows of numbered issues along the left-hand side. Medvec and Associates logo along the bottom. The three columns are Option A, Option B, and Option C. Issues 1 through 5 are Storytelling Issues. For each row, the word Vary appears in all three columns. Issues 6 through 9 are Trade-off or Contentious Issues. The word Constant appears in all three columns for each issue. Issue 10 is Contentious Issue: Price. Vary or Constant appears in each column. Issue 11 is Trade-Off or Contentious Issue. The word Constant appears in each column.

(SPEECH)
But in chapter 7, there are countless examples of using multiple offers. And in one of those offers I would likely, probably in option C, put in a bet on how my differentiators would address their pressing business.

So, notice that when I'm creating this multiple offer, I'm going to vary my storytelling issues, which is varying things about how my differentiators will address their needs. I'm going to hold constant trade-off issues. And I'm generally going to hold constant contentious issues like salary. Although salary might vary, because if you think about it, in option A and B, I might have a higher salary as a base. And in option C, I might have a lower base but with this bet on my performance that would make the total even bigger in C than it would be in A or B.

So that is all described in incredible detail in the book in chapter 7 with lots of examples, Joan. That's the thing I would say about the book is there are hundreds of examples. Examples from my client negotiations, examples from clients I've helped in negotiations, and lots and lots and lots of examples of people negotiating for themselves. So that will be fully explained in chapter 7.

1. We're going to rapid fire, Vicki, because we have a lot of questions coming in. So, question coming in from Ruth Murphy. Ruth asked, how effective is silence in a negotiation or a pause? When is it best used in your view?

So, silence is powerful because it provokes the other side to provide more information. Many negotiators are very uncomfortable with silence. There is a cross-cultural dimension to that. U.S. negotiators are particularly uncomfortable with silence and will tend to fill it in with information. So, I like to use silence. I would argue silence does not work as well all over the world, because some negotiators are very comfortable with silence.

So, silence is often used by certain cultures. Like it's a very common thing that if you are in Asia and you're negotiating with the U.S. negotiator, you might use silence against them because you'll be silent and the U.S. negotiator will fill in the silence and talk. I would say silence is very, very powerful as an information collection tool.

The only time I don't want to use silence is if I went into a negotiation and I wanted to go first. I was planning to go first. I wanted to go first. I had my entire plan, but the other side went first first. And they led, like they took the class, they read the book, they led. Then if they have an aggressive offer on the table, I don't want to be silent because that will often provoke them to reinforce that offer and create a stronger starting point. But in every other situation, silence can be a useful tool.

Excellent. Excellent. OK. Another question coming in from my friend Sue Espinoza. Sue, Lovitt & Touché in Arizona. Discuss how transparency during negotiations can help all participants feel that they got a fair shake? What's the best method in terms of being very transparent? Or when should we not be transparent?

So, I think that it's very important to be authentic and genuine and never to lie in negotiations. So, I am a firm believer that you never want to lie, because I think when you lie in a negotiation, number one, you could get caught. And if you got caught, it would break trust. And once trust is violated, it never recovers. You never bring trust back to its original level. So, I think you want to be authentic, genuine, and truthful.

On the other hand, I always say to negotiators, you don't have to convey every one of your thought bubbles though. So, you don't have to say everything that might be in your head. And I think a good guiding principle is to make sure that I'm going back and thinking about that issue matrix and thinking about the fact that I don't have to tell them the exact value of all the contentious or trade-off issues to me.

I want to instead focus on telling a story about the storytelling issues and what they're doing for them and thinking about how my differentiators address their needs and talking through that. So, I think sometimes people overdo transparency by feeling like they have to share the value of all of their contentious and trade-off issues. And I would argue that is not strategic, but I think it's very strategic to be truthful and honest and open about how your storytelling issues address their needs.

1. Amy Baginski says, how do we develop methods for helping our confidence? So you started out, the very first thing you said to us during the session today was, you have to be a confident in your own position and a confident negotiator because that confidence will exude to the other party. So how do people build confidence, first, to go first, and second, to be confident in their offer, their negotiating tactics, et cetera?

So, I think confidence is built by using the right strategies. And having strategies and being well prepared. And if you look at the book, I spend the first chapters all in preparation mode. So, I talk about putting the right issues on the table. I talk about doing the right analysis. I talk about building the right plan for your discussion. I think when you've done those things, you are more confident because you feel better prepared. So, strategies lead to confidence.

The other thing that I would say, though, is I also think you become more confident when you stop thinking about yourself and you start focusing on them.

(DESCRIPTION)
Joan nods.

(SPEECH)
Because I am very confident when I go in and I'm talking about how my differentiators can address a need or challenge or problem that you have. And I'm completely focused on solving your problem. I feel confident having that discussion. And so, I think that focusing on the other side and being well prepared are the two keys to being a more confident negotiator.

1. A couple of questions came on this topic. What's the number one reason deals fall apart?

So, deals often fall apart because people don't know when to stop negotiating. And I think this is key. Right I always say to negotiators, you want to be super aggressive, you want to do your BATNA analysis, set an ambitious goal, go in with an aggressive but not outrageous offer, have ambitious goals. But at some point, you have to know that you have to land the plane. And I always use this imagery of a plane.

And I always say, we've got to land the plane, we've got to land the plane, we've got to close the deal. We can't just let the plane hover over the field, or it runs out of gas, right? So, I've got to land the plane. And I think sometimes people struggle with this idea of how to land the plane. So, in the book, I talk a lot about closing tactics. And I talk about the importance when you're trying to close of making concessions and using concessions.

When you concede, the other side will feel like they're doing better and getting a better deal. They'll be happier and they'll like the deal better. I talk a lot about bucket issues. So, you'll see that I discuss the fact that I always want to have a package of issues on the table, and all of my contentious issues and all of my trade off issues are always in the initial package.

But in that bucket on the side, I always have some extra storytelling issues. In my initial offer, I have the storytelling issues that help me to show you how my differentiators address your needs. But I also have extra storytelling issues that are in the bucket. And I use them for two reasons. Number one, I use them because the other side might make a mistake. And they might kind of put themselves in a corner. They might say something like, take it or leave it! Or that's my final offer!

And as a good negotiator, I have to help them out of that corner. And the best way to do that is to throw in a new issue. But I also use bucket issues to close. So, I will throw in something at the end to sweeten the deal and get it over the line. And so, I use a lot of space in those late chapters in the book talking about closing and the importance of closing. Because I think that it's great to start well, but we have to close the deal, and so we've got to get it to the finish line.

Great. Great. Vicki, I have one more question for you from the audience here, and then we're going to do a wrap up. I'm going to talk about some of our other webinars upcoming. But let's talk about internally, when you have a large group of people headed into a very important negotiation with another large group of people, and what happens behind the scenes with those cross-functional kind of internal prep meetings. How important is that to do first? And should you set up kind of a good cop, bad cop when you walk into that negotiating table with the other party? What do you think?

Great question. One of the things I would say is, every internal cross-functional meeting is potentially an internal negotiation. So, I do want to think about using the right strategies internally as well as externally. And I clearly believe that if that internal team is getting ready to negotiate, you have to make sure that your internal team gets aligned. What is critical in sending a team into a negotiation is that your team is monolithic, that you show a united front.

And that is so important that if your team is not prepared, is not monolithic, you are better off sending in your best individual negotiator than a team that's not prepared. So, you've got to get that united monolithic front. And I think a great way to do that is, as you mentioned, Joan, to have a negotiation that precedes the negotiation with the other side. And that negotiation internally helps us to align on what is our reservation point? What is our goal?

But remember, you have to drive that discussion of goal to get people to focus on the weakness of the other side's alternatives and be ambitious. You have to think about, what is our story? What is the message we want to convey? How do our differentiators address their needs? Who's going to make that offer and tell that story? I'm a big fan in having a lead negotiator who's the one and only one who conveys the message, conveys the offer, and is the only one empowered to make concessions. And then knowing the roles of the other people that are there at the table.

And I would also say, be careful how many people you take to the table. My midlife crisis car has two seats in it. I think it's a perfect car to transit to a negotiation. But

(DESCRIPTION)
Joan smiling.

(SPEECH)
if you don't want to only take two, I would let you take a sedan. But there's no such thing as a minibus to go into the meeting. Because when you have too many people, it's too hard to get them aligned and get them all on the same page.

And you'll like this one, Joan. I also say, anybody who isn't in the prep meeting isn't at the table. I always say, there's a table team and a deal team. And you could be on the deal team, but you can't be on the table team unless you're in the prep meeting. Because if you're going to be in front of the other side, you have to be fully prepared and completely aligned. We have to all be monolithic.

Vicki, I think that's a great line to end on. Don't bring a minivan to a deal.

No minivans. No minivans. If you rent a bus, you've got a big problem.

We're going to remember that. Listen, this has been a brilliant class in a master negotiation. And we're just so thrilled to be able to offer the book to our attendees. And

(DESCRIPTION)
Joan and Dr. Medvec both hold up "Negotiate Without Fear" books.

(SPEECH)
find that link in the chat. I got my copy right here. Lots of tabs in it.

I know you do. You have a copy, I've got a copy, every one of your listeners should have a copy.

So, we will make sure that happens. And again, thank you so much. It's just such a delightful hour spent with you. And this replay will be available on our website, travelersinstitute.org. So, take advantage of that. And I also want to just talk about our upcoming programs.

(DESCRIPTION)
New slide titled Upcoming Webinars. Text, January 26, Thrive: How Insurance Agents and Brokers Will Succeed in 2022, with the Council of Insurance Agents & Brokers' Ken Crerar and Travelers' Pete Heard. February 2, Hit Me With Your Best Shot: A Conversation with  Johnson & Johnson's Chief Financial Officer Joe Wolk. February 16, 60 Minutes in the Middle Market: Opportunities in a Changing Marketplace, with Travelers' EVP and President, Middle Market, National Property and Business Insurance Field Scott Higgins. February 23, "Who Gets What"-- Setting Compensation After Tragedy, with preeminent mediation expert Kenneth R. Fienberg. Visit us: travelersinstitute.org

(SPEECH)
So, January 26, CEO of CIAB, Ken Crerar. Vicki gave you all the tools you're going to need to negotiate for our agents and brokers out there. And so, Ken is going to tell you what to do with them in 2022 and succeeding in your agencies. Don't miss that one. Again, that was in the chat to register.

Also, February 2, we're going to have the CFO of Johnson & Johnson, Joe Wolk. He's going to talk about what it's like running the world's largest health care company from a finance perspective and getting vaccines out the door and what's next. More importantly, what's next for the health care system and the pandemic. And then February 16, my good friend, Scott Higgins, who runs our middle market operation. He's going to talk to you about the changing marketplace for middle market.

February 23, we're going to have the expert, Ken Feinberg. Ken Feinberg who did all the settlements after 9/11, after the BP oil spill, after the Virginia Tech shootings. So, Who Gets What? We're going to be giving away his book in setting compensation after tragedy. And that really will be fascinating. If you haven't seen his Netflix documentary, Ken Feinberg is played by Michael Keaton and it's called Worth. And it's definitely worth a look. So please take a look at that.

And then I'm going to give you a teaser not on my sheet here, but I'm going to be interviewing a former defense secretary. A defense secretary in the last 10 years is going to take us around the globe talking about geopolitical hotspots. And we're going to announce his name in the coming weeks. So, watch for that.

(DESCRIPTION)
New slide. Text, Watch Replays: travelersinstitute.org. Connect, LinkedIn, Joan Kois Woodward. Take our Survey: Link in chat. #WednesdayswithWoodward.

(SPEECH)
Connect with me on LinkedIn, connect with Vicki on LinkedIn. Please follow her and her terrific advice. So, Vicki, again, thank you so much for that brilliant, brilliant conversation on negotiating. And everyone--

So, it was an honor to be here. And now that I hear who else you have; I feel even more honored. So, thank you for inviting me.

All righty. Take care, be safe, wear your mask, get your vaccines, and let's all get together in 2022. We're so excited about what the year holds for us all. So, take care.

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Webcam feeds disappear. Travelers Institute logo, Travelers logo with red umbrella. Text, travelersinstitute.org