Crafting Your Comeback: An Interview with Ginny Brzezinski

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Text, Wednesdays with Woodward (registered trademark) a webinar series. Crafting your Comeback. An Interview with Ginny Brzezinski. Logos for S B E council, Travelers Institute, Travelers, Women Taking the Lead, ACCION. 

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OK, we are going to get underway here. Good afternoon and thank you so much for joining us for today's program. My name is Joan Woodward, and I have the pleasure and honor to run the Travelers Institute. Before we begin, I'd like to take a quick moment to draw your attention to our disclaimer on the screen. 

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Disclaimer. This program or presentation is only a tool to assist you and is not for the benefit of any other party. The program or presentation does not constitute legal advice. For decisions regarding use of the practices suggested by this program or presentation, follow the advice of your own legal counsel. Travelers disclaims all forms of warranties whatsoever, without limitation, implementation of any practices suggested by this program or presentation is at your sole discretion and Travelers or its affiliates shall not be liable to any party for any damages whatsoever arising out of or in connection with the information provided or its use. Please note that this session is being recorded by Travelers. The recorded session may be used, copied, adapted, distributed, publicly displayed and or performed as Travelers deems appropriate. 

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We are so excited to continue our Wednesdays with Woodward. This is our eighth webinar in the series, interviewing thought leaders about critical topics that impact us both personally and professionally. If you missed any of our previous programs, please visit us at travelersinstitute.org to view recordings and register for our terrific upcoming webinars. 

Our program today focuses on encouraging both women and men to revamp and reinvent their careers at any age and sharing tools to help them do that successfully. I am personally excited to be joined today by my two longtime friends--Ginny Brzezinski, co-author of Comeback Careers: Rethink, Refresh, Reinvent Your Success--at 40, 50 and Beyond, written with her sister-in-law, Mika Brzezinski. And also, today, we have Ashley Wilson. Ashley is the executive director of Women Taking the Lead at the US Chamber of Commerce. 

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The cover of the book, Comeback Careers. Rethink, Refresh, Reinvent Your Success at 40, 50 And Beyond. By Mika Brzezinski with Ginny Brzezinski. The cover shows a photo of two women, one with short blonde hair and the other with shoulder length sandy blonde hair, standing side by side in dark long-sleeved shirts. 

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I think this is such an important topic, and a very timely topic, whether you're personally having to take a step back at your career for family obligations, or you know someone who has. 

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Photos of 3 speakers. Joan Woodward, EVP, Public Policy and President, Travelers Institute. Moderator. Ashley Wilson, VP and Managing Director, Congressional Affairs and Public Affairs, Executive Director, Women Taking the Lead, US Chamber of Commerce. Ginny Brzezinski, co-author of Comeback Careers: Rethink, Refresh, Reinvent Your Success--at 40, 50 and Beyond. 

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All of us should recognize that this is an important talent pool for our companies and organizations to really focus on, to bring them back to the workforce. 

Despite economic gains made by women in recent years, and especially in our insurance industry-- everyone out there knows this--we have made some significant improvements in bringing more women to the insurance industry--this issue now is real as ever, and it really has been exacerbated in my opinion by the pandemic. Headlines declaring, "Pandemic Could Scare a Generation of Working Mothers"-- scar, I'm sorry. Not scare. Scary too, it's very scary for us--but scar a generation of working mothers. She reminds us of the importance of tackling this issue to make the road smoother for those looking to return to work. 

So our speakers today will not only share tips to help you personally, but also help you make the case within your companies to prioritize finding, recruiting, and retaining this very important talent pool. I want to thank our new partner today in our Wednesday series, the US Chamber of Commerce Women Taking the Lead program, which was designed to connect high-level female leaders in government on Capitol Hill with businesses to advocate for top talent and help women create and strengthen their networks. 

Ashley Wilson is the founding executive director of Women Taking the Lead, and the vice president and managing director of congressional affairs at the US Chamber. She has more than 20 years of experience in Washington, beginning as a legislative assistant to former Senator Bill Roth, where she and I worked together for many years. She also held senior roles in the Association of American Railroads and in Amtrak. Please join me in welcoming Ashley Wilson for a few opening remarks. 

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Ashley Wilson. 

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Thank you, Joan, and good afternoon to all the women taking the lead who are joining us today. We couldn't be more thrilled to partner with the Travelers Institute on this important topic about women in the workforce. But we all know women, successful women in business and government. And we also know that there are many challenges in the workplace for women. And as Joan said, it's only gotten worse with the start of this pandemic. In recent months, we have all heard the news about the toll the pandemic is having on women. 

The Census Bureau found that women are three times more likely than men to stay home for children. So as children are probably in your living room right now doing homework, working moms, not dads, are quick at quitting or stepping back to juggle the demands of pandemic parenting. There's another stat, and I'm very interested to hear if this surprises all of you as much as it surprised me. 

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Text, Only 49% of female-owned small businesses expect sales to increase next year, down from 63% in January. Meanwhile, that number remained nearly flat for male owned businesses. 57 to 59% now. 

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Recently the Chamber conducted a poll of our small business members, and we found that in the current environment, female-owned small businesses are less likely to expect future revenue, investment, and staffing as well as growth, than their male counterparts. 

So why does this surprise me? Well, some of the most fearless entrepreneurs I know are women. So I want to know what's behind that finding. What is holding women back, especially women-owned businesses back? And how can we at the Chamber help? Well, setting aside gender for a moment, all entrepreneurs and business owners must learn to be comfortable taking risks, whether that means launching a new product, or hiring an employee, or jumping back into the workforce. 

At the Chamber, we see businesses doing this every day and we exist to help them thrive and to grow. We fight for policies that provide the economic conditions and the certainty to hire, to expand, and invest. And through Women Taking the Lead, we are also building community by bringing women together to champion female small business owners struggling right now in this pandemic, as well as equipping all women to succeed through weekly virtual discussions that will help them overcome their fears, pursue their dreams, and succeed. And if you're not part of this group, please reach out to Ginny or Joan or myself and join us. We'd love to have you. I'll turn it back over to Joan. 

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Woodward. Women Taking the Lead. Presented by the U S Chamber. For more information on the U S Chamber's leadership community, Women Taking the Lead, visit U S chamber dot com slash women. 

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All right. Thanks, Ashley, so much for your partnership and for your terrific work you're doing advancing women's careers in Washington. So now I'd like to introduce my friend Ginny Brzezinski. Ginny and I met on Capitol Hill, where she was climbing the ranks, first serving as the press secretary for US Senator Bill Roth and ultimately becoming the communications director for the entire Senate Finance Committee, where all three of us actually had the honor of helping to create and promote the Roth IRA. 

Ginny decided to take a step back in her career to care for her kids and her mom. With kids off to school, she then found herself ready to revamp her career and unsure really to where to begin. She turned to her own network and found that this was a common issue for women in their 30s, 40s, and 50s and even beyond. 

So she decided to do something about it. And she spoke with her sister-in-law, Mika Brzezinski, who you all know, who had recently launched the Know Your Value platform, geared toward younger women just starting out in their careers to try to figure out what they're worth. Ginny and Mika then decided to write a book for women in different stages of their career, so--in the later stage of the year, so they co-authored Comeback Careers: Rethink Refresh Reinvent Your Success--at 40, 50, and Beyond to offer strategies and tips from job coaches and others who have been in the situation before. This advice, in some ways, is really more important than ever, given the pandemic and its impact, as we just heard from Ashley, on women's careers. 

We feel this issue is so important that we are offering everyone today with us a complimentary copy of their book. 

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Read the book. Request your copy. Email institute at travelers dot com with your name and mailing address. Due to applicable gift rules, Travelers may be restricted from providing a free copy of this book to certain government officials or employees. 

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So email us today with your name and your mailing address, you can also include your phone number--I think Amazon requires that as well--if you want. So email us at institute@travelers.com and we will send you a copy of her book. We have limited supplies, so please do email us today and will be sent out on a first come, first serve basis. And we're really pleased to do that. 

So before I hand it off to Ginny, a quick note about submitting questions. I know we'll have a lot of questions today. So we want to make this a very interactive discussion. So we'll invite you to turn on your cameras and ask a question. So what you need to do there is you need to go to the Participants list at the bottom middle of your screen, and you simply hit Raise Your Hand. So when you raise your hand I can then unmute you, and turn on your video, and you can ask your question live. 

You can also use the Q&A function at the bottom. You can just ask a question in the chat function. So we can do that as well. If you want to remain anonymous, hit Anonymous. So a couple of ways to ask your questions today, ladies and gentlemen. So with that, I am pleased to turn it over and welcome my good friend Ginny Brzezinski. Ginny? 

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Crafting Your Comeback with Ginny Brzezinski. 

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Thank you, Joan. Thank you, Ashley. And hello, Zoomers. This is a reunion of sorts for the three of us. As you've heard, we worked together on the Hill for more than a decade and shared some memorable experiences. There we are. 

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A photo of the three younger women smiling. 

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That's 1997. None of us have changed at all. I really miss those days. And the work that you guys are each doing today--Joan's thought leadership and work leading Travelers Institute, and Ashley in leadership of the Chamber and founding Women Taking the Lead--is extraordinary. So I am proud to say I knew you both way back when. 

Those were the Ann Taylor days, right? 

Yes. 

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Woodward. 

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You haven't changed. 

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Brzezinski. 

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Unlike Joan and Ashley, who did not offramp from their amazing careers, as Joan mentioned, I chose to step away from my career to be a full-time parent. My offramp lasted seven years. Then, when my youngest started kindergarten, I returned to the workforce in a different career. I got my real estate license and spent almost 10 years in residential real estate. My first full year was 2008. You may remember that was the year of the recession, but I managed to move almost $10 million in houses, and I had a great first year. 

However, I had to interrupt my real estate career a few years later to care for my mom in Boston for a few months when she became critically ill. She's OK now. So I tell you that to let you know that I've experienced two different kinds of caregiving career breaks, both the parent and the daughter kind. 

After a decade in real estate, I decided that I wanted to again pivot my career and return to the type of work I loved in communications and government. My kids were about to fly the nest, and I decided it was time for me to do something that I was excited about, something I could really sink my teeth into. But I wasn't sure how to do it at the age of 52. I really felt like an anachronism. I wasn't sure what my value was at this point. I searched and found all kinds of career advice for women in their 20s and 30s, but not much for women looking to reinvent their careers at midlife. 

That's when I reached out to Mika. I texted her one morning when she was on set and said, I wish your Know Your Value platform would do something for women like me who are eager to pivot or return, and who aren't 25 or 30 anymore. Mika immediately jumped on the idea and said, fabulous, let's write a book. And that's how our book was born. 

As we worked on a book, I found that it wasn't just me. So many women hit their 40s or 50s and realize that it's time for a career change. Maybe their kids, like mine, have just left the nest. Maybe they're burned out in their current career. Maybe they just got restructured out of a job. Or maybe they're ready to turn a side hustle into something bigger. 

So as I was writing the book--as we were writing the book, I put them into three categories. 

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Who is Looking For Their Comeback Career? Career Relaunchers, Mid-life Reinventors, Fired at Fifties, and now Pandemic Pivoters. 

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So there are the career returners or the "relaunchers," the 2 and 1/2 to three million experienced professional women with college or advanced degrees who are trying to re-enter the workforce after a career break. Their time off can vary from a year to 20 years. The reasons women or men, but mostly women, take a career break can vary from taking care of their kids to caring for an ill spouse or parent. There are also veterans and trailing spouses who paused their careers. For the most part, they have every intention of returning to the workforce after their caregiving or other duties recede. Many have decades of professional experience. And they are a huge untapped talent pool. And these career pauses are becoming more common according to a Manpower survey, 84% of millennials say that they'll want to take a career break at some point. 

So because of this, career break returners are often overlooked. The algorithms of most applicant tracking systems reject their resumes because of their career gap, and by doing so, employers can miss great potential employees. The next category is the midlife reinventors--the women who are maybe fed up or restless or bored or burned out and ready for a career change. For many, the 40s and 50s are a time of transitions and recalibration, but whether it's the kids leaving the nest or big life changes, these women are ready to sink their teeth into a new challenge. 

But for others, sometimes the midlife career transition is involuntary. When I was working on the book, I learned a new term that I'd never heard before--"fired at 50." A 2018 analysis by the Urban Institute found that a majority of adults in their early 50s are being pushed out of jobs. Over the past decades, entire industries have restructured as technology has disrupted things across the board and forced increasing numbers of midlife women to rethink their options. 

And according to the AARP, women over 55 are likely to be unemployed longer in downturns, and when they do land a job, they often have to take a significant pay cut. The pandemic, of course, has exacerbated existing problems and accelerated workplace change. There are the job losses, of course, but for working parents, the pandemic has created a whole new category of career breaks, crashes, and pivots. There are now parents--and maybe some of you--who are stretched so thin that they're considering the previously unthinkable--dialing back or quitting their careers altogether, because they can't balance the demands of remote schooling with the demands of their job, remote or otherwise. And according to recent surveys, that could be as many as one in three, like Joan mentioned. These are what I call the "pandemic pivoters." They're the newest career breakers. So all of these workers, the relaunchers, the reinventors, the fired at 50s and the pandemic pivoters, are rethinking their careers at midlife. 

It's scary, especially in a pandemic with an economic downturn. Workers have to figure out how to navigate and optimize career pauses, because they're becoming more of a feature than a bug in many careers. We need to find opportunities in pivots to rethink how we work. We need to develop confidence in our 50-plus selves. Relaunchers and pivoters need to make sure we're relevant and discoverable. And employers need to figure out how to find and embrace workers with non-linear careers. 

This is critical on so many levels. By hiring back women after a career break--yes, even women over 50-- we can maintain a diverse, talented, and innovative workforce. By innovating ways to help workers balance work and family, we can help plug the leaky pipeline of professional women. All of this can help ensure that women and families have economic security throughout their lives. 

So if you're a returner or reinventor, a fired at 50, or a pandemic pivoter, what can you do right now in the middle of this socially-distanced time? I really feel like it's an "Etch A Sketch" moment for many careers. There's so much change going on right now. And there are opportunities and new paths in these changes. Just think about it: more jobs are remote now, which opens up opportunities that normally may have meant a move. And the pandemic seems to have changed so many of our priorities and values. Surveys showed that the pandemic has caused anywhere from 48 to 61% of women to plan a major career change, so clearly a lot of us are ready to shake that Etch A Sketch. 

Here's what I learned from top career coaches and employers, as well as women who successfully returned or pivoted their careers--advice I've adapted to fit our new normal. There's a lot more detail in our book, but I've called it the five key points. You can take photos of these slides if it helps. 

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Number 1, Take a Detailed Personal Assessment. 

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First, take a detailed personal assessment. Identify your strengths and weaknesses. Ask yourself what functions or roles you've enjoyed and succeeded best at in your paid and unpaid positions. Get a clear idea of your wants and needs, including things like what work environment or culture you thrive in? Do you need flexibility? Do you want to work part time or full time? And how much risk can you tolerate? Ask your friends and family what they think your strengths are. Take an online workshop or find a career coach to figure it all out. I really recommend workshops at iRelaunch.com, where I'm a board member, and ReBoot Accel. Both of those organizations are fabulous. 

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Number 2. Get Smart, Get Relevant, Get Updated 

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Second, get smart, get relevant, and get updated. As Carol Fishman Cohen of iRelaunch likes to say, become a subject matter expert in your field. Get current and conversant on top of new trends in your industry, follow thought leaders and companies on social media, research the job market--for example, look at the job listings for the companies in your field of interest. Look at their requirements and bios of top employees, and other things that can offer a perspective into what you need to do in that job role. Look at the LinkedIn profiles of people with jobs that you're interested in and figure out where you will need to upskill. 

Take an online class on Udemy or LinkedIn or Coursera and add them to your resume, whether it's an industry-specific thing or whether you're just learning the latest office software. And also, become a horizon scanner. I think that's really important right now because things are changing so much. You may look at where your industry is going, where you think it's going down the road, and you may need to adjust your career goals accordingly. 

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Number 3.  Craft Your Brand Value Narrative 

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Next, and this is all about knowing your value--craft your brand value narrative. So to be able to advance your career or return to work, you have to be able to state what it is you bring to the table, you have to have a clear idea of what you do, and the value you offer to others. This is going to help crystallize the professional summary at the top of your resume. It's going to be the basis of your professional bio. It'll be the foundation of your elevator pitch and your LinkedIn profile. And what this is not--it's not a list of what you've done or a job title. People or employers don't care so much about what you've done or even what you do, they want to know what you can do for them. 

So here's how you do that, even if you've had a zigzag career or multiple career pauses. Identify what you're good at, what you're known for. If you've had a few careers or even if you've had a career break, what's the narrative thread that stitches together your paid and unpaid experiences? That's your professional brand. Then answer the question--so what does that all mean? Figure out what can you do for others with those skills and expertise. When you connect those dots for an employer between your strengths and their needs, that's your brand value, the difference you can make for others. 

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Number 4. Embrace LinkedIn 

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Up next is embrace LinkedIn. LinkedIn is a huge, huge resource. It gives you the opportunities to strategically build and shape your new professional brand and message. The key elements of LinkedIn-- I'm just going to run through these. We've got an entire chapter dedicated to this in the book. But a few key things you need to know--the headline--it's 120 characters, it's a quick and powerful elevator pitch. You want to include key words that share your expertise and what you have to offer. This is your personal brand story. It's really important. 

The summary. This is 2000 words. It's kind of--LinkedIn lets your resume come to life. So the summary should be a profile that tells your professional story and defines your personal brand. You've got 2000 characters, but as I say here, the first two lines are really important because that's all people see when they click on LinkedIn. You have to click further to see more. So the summary should be conversational and first person. And you can now add rich media to it. If you've been on a panel, if you've written an article, you can add those things to it. That's something your resume could never do. 

And then the experience part of it--don't just cut and paste your resume. Craft your experience blocks to capture a recruiter's eye, but also humanize the language. You can add media here as well. And then, of course, have a great high-quality photo. Don't have it cutesy or old. Make sure that it is up to date. 

And then once you've got that going, get connected on LinkedIn. Your goal is to have at least 500 connections. If you've got less than that it'll say like 124 or something, and that's not good. You need to have 500-plus in there and that will be very helpful. And then get in the conversation. Like, comment, share on your feed. You can publish articles on there. You can source jobs through LinkedIn. So LinkedIn, make it your best friend. 

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Take classes through LinkedIn. If you join as a premium member, you have access to a huge number of classes. Number 5. Rev Up Your (Virtual) Network 

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Lastly, fifth--rev up your network virtually. If you take nothing else from this hour, remember this-- networking is the most important thing you can do, regardless of where you are in your career. 80% of jobs are found through connection versus an online application. So if you're returning or looking, reach out to your contacts by email. Let them know what you've been doing and what you want to do. Include your refreshed resume or bio and a specific summary of the type of job you're looking for or companies you want to work for. Be specific. That makes it easy for your contacts. 

These people can become your advocates who can help with connections and ideas and feedback. They may not know of a job right now, but if you give them enough information, they may know someone who can help. So make sure your email can be forwarded. You can also have virtual informational interviews with people in your industry, and you can create a virtual networking group. 

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Have virtual informational interviews with people in the industry you are interested in. Say you are returning or pivoting, and you'd like their insights on the industry or company. If they give you the time, have questions ready, ask what you need to do, where you can upskill, what their background is. Create a virtual networking group, women taking the lead or my career break conversations. 

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So those are my five things. 

I do want to say a quick word about mid-career internship programs. 

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What is a Mid-Career Return to Work Program or Returnship? 

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What is the mid-career internship program? Funny you should ask. Here's what they are--they are paid internships that are designed for executive women--or men, actually--who've been out of the workplace for two years or more and are ready to get their careers back on track. They're run like a traditional internship program. They're paid, and generally run two to six months, and they have a cohort of three to 30 people who begin at the same time and experience the transition back to work together. 

During this time, participants refresh their skills with support, updating, and professional development provided by the employer. Employers get a chance to evaluate them for full-time jobs, and about 85% are hired into permanent jobs. So these programs are really a win-win--they give talented professional women who've off ramped a chance to get back in, and they give employers a chance to base a hiring decision on an actual work sample. 

And as you'll see on the next slide, here are a number of the companies that offer these programs. They're offered right now by more than 100 of the world's largest companies, and if you want to see a full list, you can go to iRelaunch.com, and they have a full list as well as when they're running their programs, how to apply--they're across all industries now. 

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Accenture Return to Work Program. Goldman Sachs Returnship Program. General Motors Take 2 Program. Ford Re-Entry Program. PepsiCo Ready to Return. N B C Universal's Act 2 Returnship. U B S Career Comeback. Metlife ACT 2. Boeing Return Fight Program. Raytheon Technologies Re-Empower Program. Facebook Return to Work Program. American Express Financial Professional Re-Entry Program. 

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So as I've mentioned, so much of this advice I've given you, as well as a huge number of resources and how-tos are in Mika's and my book. So whether you're looking to reinvent or relaunch or you know someone who is, it's a fantastic resource full of practical advice, step-by-step strategies and real life stories. And what I'm most proud of is it's all geared toward women age 40 and beyond, because we have value too. We cover topics from rebuilding confidence to resumes, cover letters, interview questions, and LinkedIn profiles. So pick up your copy today. 

I want to conclude by pitching all of you to consider mentoring a friend or former colleague who wants to return to work after time off or somebody who's pivoting during the pandemic. You can offer to help by reviewing her resume, by connecting her to people in your sphere, by doing a mock interview with her, or by referring her for a job, but most of all in supporting her in what she's trying to do. Thank you, and I'd love to connect with you all on LinkedIn. 

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Woodward. 

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Ginny, that was more than fantastic. We are so happy to get the CliffsNotes version of the book. But remember, ladies and gentlemen, we are offering the book today. So if you email us at institute@travelersinstitute.com, we will send you a book, so send us your mailing address. And I just can't say how thrilled I am, Ginny and Ashley, with your opening remarks here and we're going to get to some really good questions. 

So ladies and gentlemen, go to that chat feature in the bottom middle of your screen there. If you just hover over it and send me your questions, I will read them off on chat. Or you can also raise your hand, and you can ask them live. We're going to turn cameras on for you as well. So you can do that by going to the Participants on the bottom middle, and then there's an option to raise your hand when you hit Participants, there's an option to raise your hand. So either way and we'll get started. 

But first I have a couple of questions. I want to bring Ashley back into this conversation and get started with a few questions for Ginny and Ashley here, so--but first, before we get into the meat and potatoes, I have a really personal question for you, Ginny. We all see Mika Brzezinski on Morning Joe and every morning, and it's just so fun watching her, but tell us the real story. On a personal note, what is it really like working with her, and what is she like? 

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Ginny Brzezinski. 

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Mika is terrific. I've never seen anybody who can balance as many things as she can. And what she's done with Know Your Value for women is fabulous. She really is everywhere, and she can be a little bit unpredictable sometimes. 

OK. Interesting.

Wait, there she is. 

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Mika Brzezinski. 

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Hello. I am very unpredictable. Hi, Ginny. You did such a great--I loved your presentation. That's our book. 

That is our book and it's more applicable now than ever. 

It is actually. I can be unpredictable and I can be really amped up and I'm really amped up about Comeback Careers right now, especially as Know Your Value gets ready to launch 50 over 50 in the next year, which is really honoring 50 fabulous women who are flourishing after 50, and who have paid it forward, as well, to help other women, which really fits into everything we're talking about today. But this book--we both felt it when we were writing it. And Ginny did all the work, and really should get all the credit. But the concept and the conversations and the friction and the process taught us a lot about just how tough it is--what a tough landscape it is for women who are relaunching or need to reinvent or are fired at 50. 

It's a tough landscape, and I'd say about 25% of what's tough is our own mindset. And that's the part we can do a huge rejigger on and get people really learning some skills to put themselves out there, to communicate effectively and to understand their own value. And then it's navigating a very tough landscape--and this pandemic? Whoa. Well, we've just taken everything to a new level, but it makes the book even more important. And Ginny, haven't you found all the lessons and all the skills that we're teaching in it are more valuable now as we're kind of struggling--everybody's struggling to recalibrate in the middle of a global pandemic. 

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Ginny Brzezinski. 

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Yeah, it really is. And especially with so many women now considering dialing back or off ramping altogether because they can't balance the demands of homeschooling with--or remote schooling with their careers. We're not going out and having coffee with people, but you can network virtually. You can do most of these things virtually. So it is. It's now more important than ever. 

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Mika Brzezinski. 

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It requires refining the skills of the book that we teach. Let's say you're working and you want to hold on to your job. You've got to connect with your boss, you've got to connect every week, you've got to send an email every week. You can't be upset or you can't take it personally if you don't hear back, but you've got to stay in touch and you've got to keep trying. Women always like take that cricket sound just like, I did something wrong, but we have to really work at connecting, whether it's online or on Zoom. Know Your Value, we talk about getting your Zoom face on. Really get into that camera and focus and get a ring light. I got a ring light on. Do you have a ring light? Ginny, you look good, do you have a ring light on? 

Thanks, Mika. I don't have a ring light, but I did manage to move my lamp over close to me. 

OK. I like that. Well, these ring lights are like a godsend. So take your Zoom meetings seriously. From here up, it matters. And really focus in--work on your background and really feel comfortable in your setting and practice with your friends. The other thing I found is, our social media accounts--they are our handshake. So people are going to look you up. And so I say to a lot of young women, but all women-- like let's clean up our social media accounts. Make sure it's putting our best foot forward and it's sending the right message, because these are only avenues in this new interconnected world where we're all online inboxes. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Ginny Brzezinski. 

(SPEECH) 
That's right. Absolutely. LinkedIn is a lifeline. It's really important. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Mika Brzezinski. 

(SPEECH) 
I think Travelers--I did my first Know Your Value event in Hartford with Travelers. We did another one in San Francisco. A great company, and kind of, I think, on the cutting edge of trying to make sure women know their value and are retained within the company so that they grow and they get to the upper ranks, which is something I'm grateful for on every level. And Ginny, I just wanted to pop in and say congratulations, because you've been amazing, doing this book and helping so many women and answering so many of their questions. I mean, some of them seem so simple, but it's a scary time for women. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Ginny Brzezinski. 

(SPEECH) 
Well, I will tell a quick story about how the book came about and then you can go, Mika. When I texted Mika, this one dark depressing morning when I thought I don't even know my value anymore. All I know is I want to change things, but I'm in my 50s, so I don't even know what I'm going to do. And Mika was talking about Know Your Value. Like, Know Your Value, they don't do anything for people like me. And so I texted her, I'm like, know your value needs to do something for women like me who took a career break. And Mika, I'm watching her on TV and I get a response. She managed to text me while she was on the air interviewing somebody. And she's like OK, let's write a book. And I'm like, yeah, right, write a book, I'm like, sure I'll write a book. Well, I thought she was joking, but she wasn't. So that's how this book came about. 

Yeah. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Mika Brzezinski. 

(SPEECH) 
Not joking at all. I am the queen of multitasking. I wrote a column for Cosmo on last night's debate during the show this morning, and Ginny and I planned maybe I'd show up here today, while I was running today. So you can do it too. We all have got to get our Zoom face on. We've got our pandemic reset mindset going, and you've got Ginny to guide you through this. So you're in good hands. And thanks for having me. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Woodward. 

(SPEECH) 
We are so thrilled that you wanted to pop in, and I'm sure all of our hundreds of people here, almost 1,000 people on the line, are just so grateful for your taking this on for women in business. And 10 years ago-- as you just said, 10 years ago when you launched we had you speaking to the Travelers Championship (registered trademark) golf event in Hartford, and that was really fun, and we'll definitely do more with you in the future. And thanks again for the cameo, and all you've done for women. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Mika Brzezinski. 

(SPEECH) 
I pray to God I see you in real life sometime. Bye, everyone. 

Take care. 

Bye, Mika. 

Call me. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Woodward. 

(SPEECH) 
So folks, about a half an hour ago, I got a text from Ginny saying, hey, Mika wants to pop in and what else--what a cherry on top that has been for us. So thank you Mika and Ginny. All right, so back to our script here. And thank you. Keep sending in all your questions, please do, ladies, and raise your hand. You can also--again, going down the Participant, the middle bottom of your screen, then it pops up and says, "Raise your hand" and I'll recognize you. 

But first, another slide for you, because this is really important. Ginny is a master, as you just heard her a crafting a narrative. So give us some tips for women who think about crafting their own personal narrative. How should they get started, and how should they discuss that career break if they had one? 

(DESCRIPTION) 
How to Discuss Your Career Break with a Potential Employer. Be honest and upfront but don't dwell on it. Lead with your interests today, then weave in the break. Explain in 1 or 2 sentences. Be clear the gap is over. Fill the gap on your resume/LinkedIn with positive explanation of what you were were/ doing, strategic volunteering, continuing education, pro bono work. Pivot to focus on your value not your career pause. That's your secret sauce and that's what gets you hired. Ginny Brzezinski. 

(SPEECH) 
So this is the burning question for anybody who's ever taken a career break. How do I address my resume gap? What do I say? I haven't been doing anything, is what is going through their mind. And I don't know how to talk about it. So first of all, you need to be honest and upfront, but not dwell on it. Whether it's on your resume, on LinkedIn, or in an interview, you can't not address it. You need to say, really simply, I paused my career to raise my kids or to take care of my mom or take care of my ill spouse and now I'm eager and ready to return to work. 

A couple of things--be clear that the gap is over, and make it clear you're ready to get back. If it's on your resume or LinkedIn, you want to fill that time with an explanation of what you've been doing, because I know you've been doing things. Maybe you've been volunteering. Maybe you've been taking classes online. Make sure that's in there. And then also show you're current by showing any certifications that you've received. And be confident in what you have to offer. You want to-- when you're talking about it in an interview, just lead with your interest today and then weave in your break. 

So say you're pivoting after a break. In an interview, you can say--talk about, first of all, your experience before your break. I spent 10 years in strategic communications for a tech company. After my kids were born, I paused my career. During my time off I took x courses, I did x pro bono work, I developed an interest in x. And now I'm hoping to combine my years of experience with my new interest in blank-- so if you're coming back and pivoting, you can say something like that. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Woodward. 

(SPEECH) 

OK. Great. Great. So what is the biggest barrier, then, for women returning to work after a career break. What is their biggest hurdle they have to overcome? 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Ginny Brzezinski. 

(SPEECH) 
As Mika mentioned just now, and what I found by talking to so many different women-- it's really a confidence issue. Anyone who considers returning to work after a few years or more away feels I don't know if I'm up to it. I don't know if I can still perform. There's so much fear in this process. There's a fear of failure and rejection. There's the fear of being too old. There's a fear of embarrassing yourself. 

But for the women who went through this and got back in, they all told me that the fear was bigger than the reality. So we devote an entire chapter of Comeback Careers to confidence building. And here are a few things that I've culled from the book. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Overcoming a Lack of Professional Confidence After Career Break. You can build professional confidence in this situation in a few ways. First, figure out what you want to do. Upskill where you need to, make sure you are relevant and current. Do your research, know your subject matter. Revive your network. Reconnect with former colleagues and let them know you are thinking about returning. 

(SPEECH) 
You can build professional confidence by making a list of what we call your historic wins, big and little. Just remind yourself of what you were able to achieve. These ones show your strength, and your resilience, and your ability to succeed, and will remind you that you can do this stuff. You can build confidence by gathering what I call your "squad," your friends, and asking them what they think your strengths are, and what they think you should be doing. 

But also just update yourself. If you're feeling rusty, take some classes online. If you're feeling out of the loop, then start doing your homework, do your research, know your subject matter. And if you're feeling like you're out of touch with your network, get back in touch. Revive your network. Don't be embarrassed. It's OK. 

Carol Cohen of iRelaunch has a really funny saying. She says that to your former colleagues, you're frozen in time. In other words, they're not thinking of you as rusty or out of the loop or the person who's in sweats driving carpool. They remember you as a superstar you were when you worked together. And then just develop a faith in yourself and project faith and confidence, even if you have to fake it. 

When I interviewed-- or when Mika and I interviewed Meredith Vieira, she said that she says a mantra when it comes to dealing with ageism. She says to herself, "Yes, I am an older woman. But with that comes experience and maturity." And she says that if you project what you want, it will be reflected back at you. 

So that brings me to the next confidence issue which goes hand in hand with it, and that's ageism. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Fighting Ageism in a Job Search. 

(SPEECH) 
And the way to fight back against ageism is to know your stuff. Knowledge, expertise, and relevance beat ageism every time. And then turn your age into advantage. If you're 50, or in your 40s or 50s or beyond, you're probably not driving carpool anymore. You probably don't have to run around with your kids so much. And so you're much more available. And really use that and hit that home for any employer. I have the time to do this now, I can really put my whole self into this. 

And also, if you're older, you probably have more experience, you have bigger networks, and you have maturity. The other things you can do to fight back against ageism is to make sure you're updated on tech and social media and office basics. Show that you can work well with younger colleagues or younger supervisors by making sure you're mixing it up with people in different generations. Always be willing to learn. I think that's so important, is that you may not have the same up-to-date tech or office skills that the people in your current field have, but you need to be able to show that you're willing to learn. And if you can do that, that is super helpful. 

And then being current in your presentation. This is what I found by talking to people, is that it's the dated eyeglasses and the dated haircut that will get us every time. So make sure you're current in your presentation. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Woodward. 

(SPEECH) 
I mean, you can go on and on. This is so valuable. Great information. I'm getting a number of questions coming in through the chat feature. So keep them coming. I'm going to take a couple from the chat feature. I'm not going to mention who's adding them. But I'm going to go to Ashley on this one. So here's the theme. The theme is, I've been in my job for a long time, 10 years or so. How do I get noticed by managers, maybe, in different silos or other places? But how do I kind of relaunch my career, even though I like my job, and I'm going to stay in my job, but I want to be seen in a different light. 

And so Ashley, that's what you did. So you were at the US Chamber of Commerce for a number of years, at least over 10 years, and you wanted to build a women's program and you went to bosses or people start talking about it. How did you launch this enormously successful program when you'd been at your job already for 10 years? Give us some tips about and address some of these questions coming in from people saying, I've been at my job, I love my job, I want to stay at my job, but I want to do more. I'm going to get noticed. I want to relaunch and reinvigorate my workplace. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Ashley Wilson. 

(SPEECH) 
Thank you, Joan, thank you, Ginny. Great question, great question. I have actually been at the Chamber of Commerce for 18 years, I've been the chief tax lobbyist, I've done transportation issues--but really, I've been in the same job for a long time. And talk about burnout. After a while you kind of burn out or you get bored. And so I wanted to move to the next level. It was very frustrating, because you're seen in one way. So how do you-- how are you seen in a different way? 

Well, what I did was really started listening to our membership, our members, the people in my network, you know, and I was hearing this drumbeat of, I'm not discoverable. Ginny Brzezinski, you mentioned that--being discoverable. I can't get on a panel, I can't get that CEO job, I can't get to that next level. And I thought, I have a platform. We work at the US Chamber of Commerce. You want a platform; I'll give you a platform. We have three million businesses. We're in every state. We're in every country. You want a platform; I'll create a platform. 

And so there was a lot of discussions at the Chamber about how--let's do a women's leadership group, but nobody really was serious about taking it on or it was just a little bit too much. So I just said, I'm not going to ask for permission, I'm just going to do it because it's the right thing to do. And I've been here long enough and successful enough that we can just do this. And so we created a series of monthly and weekly programs. It created a platform for women to shine, and to not only shine because they're women, but to shine in their substance area. So you had a panel of economists--what is going on in the economy today? And they had a woman come moderate, and moderate with female economists. And that created a platform for them to be seen and heard and discovered. 

This program has become so successful. We started with 40, and maybe three sponsors. We're now up to thousands, and quite a few sponsors. And recruiters are now calling me, because they know I have a network of women at VPs and above--who can I get? And we are always saying this--recruiters are lazy. They only know who they know. 

That's right. That's right. 

Create a situation where you are seen and heard. So you want to join networks and like Women Taking the Lead or other networks like this where you're seen, but so my advice is, think about what you're passionate about, and do it. Don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness. And-- 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Woodward. 

(SPEECH) 
I love that, Ashley. I love that phrase. I probably do it too much. For those of you who know me out there, I ask for forgiveness a lot more than I ask for permission. But sometimes you have to do that. And what you have built at the Chamber-- and again anyone can join us. So if you look on the screen--is that right, Ashley? Any one of our hundreds of people can join your group. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Wilson. 

(SPEECH) 
Yep, you can join it. Just go to the US Chamber of Commerce/women, email me, awilson@uschamberofcommerce, Ginny, Joan, look at me on LinkedIn. We'll join--we'll make sure you're there. Get to know me--I will find a panel, I will give you a platform, I will recommend you to recruiters, I will make sure boards who are looking know you. That's my whole dream right here, is just advance women and help you be seen and heard. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Woodward. 

(SPEECH) 
That is awesome. You're so generous, and I'm personally so proud of you, Ashley. I do have to say, I think you were the intern in the office at one point. I cannot tell you how proud I am, but now it makes me feel very old. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Wilson. 

(SPEECH) 
She was an intern-- 

[INTERPOSING VOICES] 

--much younger than you. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Woodward. 

(SPEECH) 
All right, ladies, we have more slides to get through, we have more questions. So Ginny--Ashley, thank you so much. It was really, really terrific and I'm just so proud of you and building this thing. 

So back to us that may have been affected by the pandemic in a way that is just unfathomable. Ginny, people have actually had to quit their jobs because they had to work with their children or their elderly folks in the home. So what about these women who are taking a step back right now in their careers. Or men, frankly. We're getting a couple of questions and I want to get to this question about men who may have left the workforce and try to re-enter. Because some of these tips are just incredibly applicable to men who may have stepped away. And there's a stigma, right? There's still a stigma out there for the men that have stepped away to do childcare. 

But for people currently out of the workforce because of the pandemic, what can they do right now to better position themselves to return to the workforce in the future? 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Ginny Brzezinski. 

(SPEECH) 
I think that the most important things that they can do is keeping their skills and experience relevant. Take classes. Make sure, like we were just talking, that you are keeping your network active and that you're on LinkedIn. I think that those are some of the most important things that you can be doing right now. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
If you are considering taking time off, here's what you could consider before you pull the rip cord. 

(SPEECH) 
But if you haven't, if you're thinking about jumping out and you haven't made that decision yet, you should not do it lightly or emotionally. You need to think about this. You need to know what the impact is going to be on your career. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Try to have a plan. 

(SPEECH) 
You need to know what the financial impact is going to be on your family, know how much a career break is going to cost. 

You can actually--and this is a scary tool-- you can actually project the costs with this online tool from Michael Madowitz. If you just google "Center for American Progress" or "Michael Madowitz career break calculator," it'll come up. And let me tell you it's more than about just how much you earn versus how much childcare costs. It's much more than that. 

This example that I put up here--30-year-old woman making $50,000 a year. If she takes three years off, it would cost her not only that $150,000 in lost income, but an additional $140,000 in lost wage growth over her career, and $125,000 in retirement assets and benefits that she would have gained over her lifetime. So that's a lot of dough. Also consider the risks of being dependent on one employer. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
But if after considering those things, you still decide to take time off. 

(SPEECH) 
But if you have considered all those things, and you still want to take time off, then what you should do is, while they're fresh in your mind, document all of your work accomplishments because you're not going to remember them a couple of years down the road. You won't remember all of them, at least. And during your time off, like I was just saying, don't disappear. Keep that career door open, keep your network going, keep abreast of what's going on in your field, keep up your certifications, and keep your LinkedIn profile active. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Woodward. 

(SPEECH) 
OK, great. We have a question. Thank you, Ginny. Question coming in from Susan McGuirl at Hub International. "I have already read your book. I loved it. What is the single most important thing women can do to focus on themselves and their careers?" 

So being a little selfish--women are afraid to be selfish, right, to focus on themselves in their careers? How do you think about that, Ginny? 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Ginny Brzezinski. 

(SPEECH) 
You know, I think it all comes back to keeping your skills and knowledge relevant, you know, by taking classes, by keeping on top of what's going on in your industry, and then also by always, like we've been talking about, engaging with your network. Whether it's online or in person, your network is the most important tool in your toolbox. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Woodward. 

(SPEECH) 
OK, great. So from Sharri Harmel coming in, "Can you also speak to the challenges and opportunities of becoming an entrepreneur?" Right, as a comeback career, because you clearly, Ginny, are an entrepreneur. And so if you have that entrepreneurial spirit, what are the challenges there for someone to step away from kind of their dedicated paycheck and start a company or start an enterprise? 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Ginny Brzezinski. 

(SPEECH) 
Yes. We talk about this in the book. There are so many women, especially women at midlife, who take this route. They want to turn a side hustle into a business. They're like Ashley, they've started some fabulous organization and they want to take it to the next level. 

But before you quit your day job, do your research, know your risk tolerance, be realistic, and for most businesses be ready to not make any money or even lose money in the first couple of years, because it's tough to do. But if you can find something you love, and you can make money with it, that's awesome. Another thing I found with all the different women I talked to who had started their own thing is they all said when they started something with a friend, it made a huge difference, because they could share the burden, they could help each other out. I think that was definitely one of my takeaways from somebody wanting to start their own thing. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Woodward. 

(SPEECH) 
OK, terrific. And maybe to both of you on this one--I'm going to have Ginny go first, and then Ashley, we want your thoughts as well. I'm not going to say who submitted this question, because it's a little tricky, but-- "What's the best way to approach a salary discussion?" so this is back to know your value, right? How do you know that you're worth more than you're making? And how do you approach your manager-- say you've been in your job for a long time, and you really do deserve more pay? I think women have a tougher time asking for an increase than men do. So Ginny, you first. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Ginny Brzezinski. 

(SPEECH) 
Yeah, it's hard because as women, we think that we're just going to work really hard, and somebody is going to recognize how great we are. And they're going to come to us with a bag of money and say, "You're fabulous. Here's your new title. Here's a raise. I love you." That's not how it works. OK. The most important thing you can do when you approach the salary discussion is to have done your homework. Know how much people are making in similar jobs and have a list of your own achievements. 

When I worked on the Hill, I found out that my--I worked in the Senate--I found out that my House counterpart was making 50% more than I was making. And I was doing as much work as he was doing, and I was doing a great job. Of course, it was a guy, right? So I went to my boss, and I went to him with the numbers, and I listed off all my recent achievements. And not only, to his credit, did I get the raise, I got back pay too. 

So you need to--if you do your homework, and you don't get emotional--I mean, you hear stories about women crying or whatever--don't. Go in with your facts, and ask for it, and say, this is why. Don't say, "Because my rent's increased," don't say, "Because it's costing me more to do this." It has to be based on your work product. 

Ashley, what's your experience? 

Excellent, excellent advice. 

Ashley, what's your advice on this one? 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Wilson. 

(SPEECH) 
I muted. I think this is a really good discussion, and one we need to have often among friends, and with colleagues, other female counterparts. I would say that for women--and Joan, you and I have talked about this--there's the formula PIE--Performance, Image, and Exposure. Women tend to spend 80% of their time on performance, and 10-20 on image and exposure, whereas men spend 10% on performance, and 80, 90% on image and exposure. And so they are being seen and exposing themselves quicker, faster, but women are putting their head down and working. 

And so I think with salaries you don't get paid for what you're hired to do. I mean, there is that in the beginning, you know, but you're paid for what you do beyond your job. And so I would say, I would work beyond what you're doing, create a project, do something, and then you go and you talk about I'm doing more than my job. So I mean, for me that's always been--I'm operating at the VP level, I'm operating at the senior VP level. I've created--and have the statistics, have the data that follows it. But remember, women, that doing your job is just not enough. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Woodward. 

(SPEECH) 
It's not at all, I do agree. OK. A couple more questions. And I'm going to get to the men here, the brave men who are asking questions and making comments. I see my friend David May is also joining in here. But from the men--and this is to you, Ginny--so a couple of them have taken a step back in their careers to take care of children. Maybe their wife had a bigger career, maybe they just felt their job was not where it's at, maybe-- one young gentleman here said he stepped back from a big career on Wall Street to take care of his kids, and someone made fun of him because they said, what are you doing that for? You don't have a uterus. 

I mean, our society is not yet accepting, I think, of men taking a step back. And so is this advice, is your book also geared for men who may have taken an offramp for a few years and want--and need an onramp back in their careers? 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Ginny Brzezinski. 

(SPEECH) 
Yes. And is there different advice you would give men? 

No, there's not. I think that the reason it's geared toward women is because it's part of Know Your Value, which is geared toward women. But there are men also who hit mid-career burnout and who want to change things and who want to pivot their careers, there are men who take time off. That millennial survey shows that so many men and women plan to take a career break. So while for some men it seems unusual, I think it's becoming more and more common for guys to take time off for family. And I think that in the workplace, we have to support that. 

But the same advice applies to men as to women. And I have gotten that question before, why didn't you write this for men too? But it's just because it's part of Know Your Value. So it's geared toward women. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Woodward. 

(SPEECH) 

OK. Great. Ashley, back to you. And we're going to wrap this up in a minute here. I'm going to give the website or the email again to get your book, so stay tuned for that. 

So women don't always support other women. This is really interesting to me. I wonder if you could please speak to this, and why is this? Is it because there are so few jobs at the top, we're so competitive with each other? Is it jealousy? Why don't women support other women, in your view? Ashley, you want to go first? 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Wilson. 

(SPEECH) 
Sure. You know I think that's an interesting question. I think in the past, if you were to kind of think about it, women might have thought there's only one seat for me, for a woman at the top, and therefore I'm competing with women. But now, as we see, there's much more. You don't need to think about it that way. You're not competing against one woman for one spot. You are helping each other to rise together to the top. 

You know, we're 50% of the population. We're 50% of the workforce. We own 2/3 of the purchasing power. We have over $3 trillion in investable assets. We're powerful. You don't need just one, you need 50% or more. So I think the attitude has changed as more and more women are recognizing the power that they have. And so these networks really are important. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Woodward. 

(SPEECH) 
Great. Ginny, do you have a thought on that one? 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Ginny Brzezinski. 

(SPEECH) 
Yeah, no, sure. Especially for women who have taken a career break and are looking to get back in there, there are women who totally support that. And there are some women who say, I worked my ass off when-- excuse me, Joan-- when I was-- 

[INTERPOSING VOICES] 
--I didn't step out, and why should I support you after you chose to do that? And so there is that. But from what I've seen, I've found that women tend to see the sisterhood and want to help women get back in, and realize that this is not somebody who's competing for your job, that there's room for everybody and that the more women we can get back into the workforce after a career break, the more of us there are available to work our way up. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Woodward. 

(SPEECH) 
Well, I have to leave it there. And I cannot thank you enough, Ginny and Ashley. And I have to say, I got goosebumps a couple of times when you were speaking about what you've been able to achieve over these last 20 years--both of you--and you have beautiful families and wonderful careers, wonderful advice for our audience here. I'm going to give the email one more time, but we have a busy month ahead of us for Wednesdays with--so thank you, Ginny and Ashley, from the bottom of my heart. I really appreciate you joining us today. 

So our busy month ahead for Wednesdays with Woodward, so here we go--October 7, "Employee Safety During COVID-19," October 14, "Insurance Industry Regulation and Legislative Outlook"-- so this will be really important to talk about the nitty gritty, this is a detail oriented, what's going on with insurance regulatory in Washington and the states-- and then the 21st, "Cybersecurity During a Pandemic." And this is very important. We'll talk about our Travelers’ Risk Index that we just released. So visit us at the TravelersInstitute.org to register for those programs. And also we're going to have a replay of this-- if you thought this was fantastic, which of course it was, the replay will be up on our website in a few days. So please do feel free to pass this terrific conversation on to your colleagues if they missed it today. 

(DESCRIPTION) 
Watch replays of past webinars at travelersinstitute dot org, Life After Shelter in Place, A Conversation with Stanford University School of Medicine Dean Lloyd Minor MD. Liability Issues for Business in the Time of Covid-19. Emotional and Social Reintegration in the Age of Covid19. Path to Reopening Your Business. Return to Work with Cybersecurity. An Inside Look at Iintellidrive (registered trademark), Travelers’ Telematics Program to Encourage Safer Driving Behaviors. An Economic and Political Outlook for 2020 and Beyond. 

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And then, most importantly, email us to get your free book. So that email again is institute@travelers.com. Please give us your full address and your phone number so we can ship you your book, and give us a few weeks for that as we go through the hundreds of requests we're getting in. So stay safe, my friends. It is my honor to lead the Travelers Institute and email me with any tips or any topics you want to see us cover here. We're going to be at this, I think, for a few more months beyond what we thought originally, so into the new year with our webinar series. Ginny, Ashley, thank you a million from the bottom of my heart. 

Thank you. 

Bye, guys. 

Bye.